Audi Sport quattro-Ebay-BIG bucks - Page 5

s2rob · 22-10-12, 08:54 AM

good point about the beemer......
mk2 escorts...if i had a genuine rs2000,would that be worth more or less than my mates escort popular which looks like an rs2000??????

same with lambo reps,looks same,goes same(rep may be quicker),but not priced same

rtz62 · 22-10-12, 10:27 AM

There's a guy near here (Glapwell, just on the edge of J29 of the M1) who regularly has a recovery vehicle outside his council house with Maltese registered Escort mk1&2's on.
I know of 2 that have been turned into 'genuine RS2000's using the original vehicles vin plate and log book.
But fook me, how many mk1&2 Escorts are there still left in Malta, an island of 316 km2, with less roads than the smallest English county, Rutland

SteveT63 · 22-10-12, 10:56 AM

The 'R' debate goes on!!... Love it!!

Personally I think circa £100k, these days, isn't a lot of money for this type of thing.
WRC is on its arse, Fords out, BMW are out and Citroen are considering to pull the plug. I can't see interest in Group B rallying ever running out and if I'm honest I don't think it's reached it's peak yet either. Owning something like the Audi is better than money in the bank, all day everyday.

Ten years ago a mint genuine sport quattro with 40000kilometres on the clock was worth £28 grand, I was there when it sold (yeah I know, should have!)

The same year, 44WMN, the genuine Mikkola driven British Championship ex Sutton car sold for £100 grand.

Move forward to today, interest in Group B stuff is back on a roll, historic rallying of these cars can be seen by the masses again, provided, of course, that you travel abroad!

That same £28 grand sport now has a starting price of £130 grand and the £100 grand works car is £350.

Everything is on the up, my pukka Group 4 Mk1 Escort built from a perfect 1300E shell in 1982 stood me at £6000 and went just as quick sideways as Graham Lepleys POO504R ex works car let me tell you!!

To recreate that Escort now, probably ten times that but it wouldn't be any less capable than Roger Clarks Daily Mirror RAC winner which some would say is priceless now.

And let's not forget, the Group B cars were thrown together back then, even David Sutton remarked that it wasn't rocket science to build one. What is carbon fibre and aircraft grade fasteners now, was GRP and self tapping screws back then!!

I'm told that the guy who owns 44WMN also runs a genuine Stratos on events, fitted with body panels from Hawk Cars to preserve the genuine items. (recreation Stratos manufacturers) when you see it in the flesh, you cant tell the difference, that's how good the quality of the parts are.

I've been lucky enough to get very close to the factory car 44 WMN and indeed Andys car. If they were parked next to each other, the vast majority of the fans who love these cars wouldn't know the difference (with the exception of us anoraks on here obviously!) and I really don't think they would care, it's about the emotions they stir in you when you see them. Tiz for me anyhow.

When I see a fastidiously prepared Audi like Andys, or a Group 4 Mk2 Escort the likes of which Richard Lepley or Camilius
Bradley turn out, I don't care if its done the RAC rally in 1980 or that is not got any works history, they are what they are, a fine tribute to the era and in most cases, as good or if not better assembled, than the originals were. They are masterpieces in their own right and just as capable. I wonder just how many recreations are on display in Audi premises around the globe. I've got serious doubts on at least one of Suttons old cars that we see on a regular basis, I'd bet my wages that LYV4X as we see it now, has never done a rally in its life! I may be wrong, of course!

Im with John, if you are going to build one, it's got to be able to perform on the stage it was meant to be seen on, Andys fits the bill there too.

Worth what someone will pay? Exactly that, but it's in the right area if you ask me....

I wonder if in 30 years if people will be talking about the Mitsubishi Evo that Tommi Makkinen won his last championship in, with as much passion and affection??......Doubt it!

SteveT63 · 22-10-12, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtz62

There's a guy near here (Glapwell, just on the edge of J29 of the M1) who regularly has a recovery vehicle outside his council house with Maltese registered Escort mk1&2's on.
I know of 2 that have been turned into 'genuine RS2000's using the original vehicles vin plate and log book.
But fook me, how many mk1&2 Escorts are there still left in Malta, an island of 316 km2, with less roads than the smallest English county, Rutland

Bought a mint MK2 Escort Shell from him in 1999. Brand new Ford panels fitted all round, wings bonnet boot and doors £700.

Same thing price now? £5000.

rtz62 · 22-10-12, 12:02 PM

£6000 back then equates to £???? now though Steve?
I remember you and I turning down a mk1 Escort Twin Cam (or was it an RS1600) at £4000 as it was 'too expensive' at the time!
I think you're wrong about TM's car, by the way, it will be worth 'all the money' all day long, not only because of what the car is, and represents, but also because of the legacy left by its driver (same goes for an ex-Burns or McRae car).
Id agree with you more if you'd have suggested Seb Loebs car; imho he isn't a 'personality' like the aforementioned, and is unfortunate to be a big fish and a rapidly diminishing pool, as interest in WRC seems to be on the wane. Thats not to knock his skill or abilities, but to be considered the best you have to be competing against 'the best'; hence I'm sure thats why he is jumping ship to Touring Cars, to prove his mettle.
A recreation of a rally car is a good thing, as the likes of the ordinary folk (I class myself in there) could never afford a genuine works car, and, if we could, probably wouldn't want to risk bending it; its a bit like having a Rembrandt, and putting a copy on display; 99% of the people wouldn't know the difference, and wouldn't care anyway, it is, as you quite rightly say, the pure emotion that evokes in us that matters.
I'm now going to my shed to carry on with recreating, out of a washing-up bottle and a roll of sticky-back plastic, a genuine Saturn V rocket (a la Blue Peter)

SteveT63 · 22-10-12, 12:23 PM

Oh I agree, the Makkinen car will be worth the big money, but I don't think it will be held with the same affection by the masses in years to come and talked about in the way we talk about Group B now. I can't remember seeing my first evo rally car, but I remember being at Gordon Lambs at the bottom of the Dronfield by pass back on a foggy Saturday morning back in the early 80s, when I saw my first Montego Black quattro, and then being stood in Dalby Forest at 3am watching the brakes glowing on Mikkolas car, like it was yesterday.

As for your Saturn V Rocket recreation, I've got one of those, that (spoken in true John Noakes style)... I made earlier.... Get down Shep!!

rtz62 · 22-10-12, 01:07 PM

Mate,
I've still got an Airfix or Revel Saturn v rocket model waiting to be built up in its box!
We are all captives of our own era; our dads might have said the Monte-winning Minis were the most exciting, today's teenager saying Loebs Citroen is the best.
Turn it round slightly, is the F1 championship winning car of Mike Hawthorne better or more desirable than Vettels Red zbull from last year? But we'd all want Sennas cars, even the ones that didn't win, purely by association with the driver and the era that was important in our formative years.
Me?
I'd have Mikkolas Audi, Alens S4, Alan Jones Williams and Sennas McLaren. Note the lack of current vehicles.....

butch · 22-10-12, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtz62

Think you're wide of the mark Butch.
Any car, by definition, that isn't original, would have to be a rebuild, copy, recreation etc; a 'thing' can only be original once. Like Ive said so many times in the past (and the high-end concours world concurs) a car may be like new but if it doesn't have the original shell then its not original.
Its the 'Triggers Brush' syndrome, we've all seen the adverts "works rally car for sale, originally driven by 'Harri Blowjob', since re-shelled..." - swell its not the car driven by Mr Blowjob is it?
Likewise, if a car isn't one of the original build run, then its not one of those either.
'Evocation' seems to be the word used now, and this car is just that, possibly one of the best of its kind, and a glowing tribute.
Ive just picked up a mint 1990 BMW 320i SE; if I buy all the bits and 'convert' it into an M3, does it 'become' and M3 or is it a recreation / copy / evocation?
Still, I doff my cap, this is a terrific car, and the build is exacting, so who knows what t will fetch? It only needs one person to be interested enough to buy it....!

yes i agree to a point, i didnt say it was an original though, and we all know it dosnt portray itself as one, i said it is physically a S1 rally car. POO 504R has been re shelled more times you can shake a stick at it so is it not POO? of course it is, the car is made up of parts they get damaged and replaced, it may not be the original car that was built but its still that car. if we go too serious then the 1st back axle hannu broke would rendour the car not the original. the DVLA must be satisfied it is the car otherwise it wouldnt still have them plates on. or what do you think? its splitting hairs i think an i havnt really got any spare to start doing that haha. some good interesting views

rtz62 · 22-10-12, 06:55 PM

Ok, a case in point, and one that defines the market view;
When a 'famous' Auto Union race winning car came up for auction over 12 months ago, it was initially withdrawn as it wasn't the chassis it purported to be.
The experts view was that, for instance, the engine is changed after a significant event (eg a stage or race win) then that's one thing but to change the chassis and / or a substantive amount if the running gear after such a moment, and it's not driven by, say McRae, again, it can only loosely claim to be an ex-McRae car. If you follow my gist? (That's Bonhams view, not mine by the way).

butch · 22-10-12, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtz62

Ok, a case in point, and one that defines the market view;
When a 'famous' Auto Union race winning car came up for auction over 12 months ago, it was initially withdrawn as it wasn't the chassis it purported to be.
The experts view was that, for instance, the engine is changed after a significant event (eg a stage or race win) then that's one thing but to change the chassis and / or a substantive amount if the running gear after such a moment, and it's not driven by, say McRae, again, it can only loosely claim to be an ex-McRae car. If you follow my gist? (That's Bonhams view, not mine by the way).

yes i do, so how does the market view the POO family? think there was a few POO's 504R, 505R, maybe more not sure who jockied which one but all got totaled, whally rolled a few quattros too so there's a couple of reshell jobs. my mate just said colin mcrae truck+spares+6r4 forsale for £500k

22-10-12, 10:56 AM	#43
SteveT63 Senior Member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,045	The 'R' debate goes on!!... Love it!! Personally I think circa £100k, these days, isn't a lot of money for this type of thing. WRC is on its arse, Fords out, BMW are out and Citroen are considering to pull the plug. I can't see interest in Group B rallying ever running out and if I'm honest I don't think it's reached it's peak yet either. Owning something like the Audi is better than money in the bank, all day everyday. Ten years ago a mint genuine sport quattro with 40000kilometres on the clock was worth £28 grand, I was there when it sold (yeah I know, should have!) The same year, 44WMN, the genuine Mikkola driven British Championship ex Sutton car sold for £100 grand. Move forward to today, interest in Group B stuff is back on a roll, historic rallying of these cars can be seen by the masses again, provided, of course, that you travel abroad! That same £28 grand sport now has a starting price of £130 grand and the £100 grand works car is £350. Everything is on the up, my pukka Group 4 Mk1 Escort built from a perfect 1300E shell in 1982 stood me at £6000 and went just as quick sideways as Graham Lepleys POO504R ex works car let me tell you!! To recreate that Escort now, probably ten times that but it wouldn't be any less capable than Roger Clarks Daily Mirror RAC winner which some would say is priceless now. And let's not forget, the Group B cars were thrown together back then, even David Sutton remarked that it wasn't rocket science to build one. What is carbon fibre and aircraft grade fasteners now, was GRP and self tapping screws back then!! I'm told that the guy who owns 44WMN also runs a genuine Stratos on events, fitted with body panels from Hawk Cars to preserve the genuine items. (recreation Stratos manufacturers) when you see it in the flesh, you cant tell the difference, that's how good the quality of the parts are. I've been lucky enough to get very close to the factory car 44 WMN and indeed Andys car. If they were parked next to each other, the vast majority of the fans who love these cars wouldn't know the difference (with the exception of us anoraks on here obviously!) and I really don't think they would care, it's about the emotions they stir in you when you see them. Tiz for me anyhow. When I see a fastidiously prepared Audi like Andys, or a Group 4 Mk2 Escort the likes of which Richard Lepley or Camilius Bradley turn out, I don't care if its done the RAC rally in 1980 or that is not got any works history, they are what they are, a fine tribute to the era and in most cases, as good or if not better assembled, than the originals were. They are masterpieces in their own right and just as capable. I wonder just how many recreations are on display in Audi premises around the globe. I've got serious doubts on at least one of Suttons old cars that we see on a regular basis, I'd bet my wages that LYV4X as we see it now, has never done a rally in its life! I may be wrong, of course! Im with John, if you are going to build one, it's got to be able to perform on the stage it was meant to be seen on, Andys fits the bill there too. Worth what someone will pay? Exactly that, but it's in the right area if you ask me.... I wonder if in 30 years if people will be talking about the Mitsubishi Evo that Tommi Makkinen won his last championship in, with as much passion and affection??......Doubt it! __________________ Peace...........through superior acceleration! T85 1985 90quattro I5 20vT T81 1983 80 Sport Red T81 1983 80 Sport Silver

22-10-12, 12:23 PM	#46
SteveT63 Senior Member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,045	Oh I agree, the Makkinen car will be worth the big money, but I don't think it will be held with the same affection by the masses in years to come and talked about in the way we talk about Group B now. I can't remember seeing my first evo rally car, but I remember being at Gordon Lambs at the bottom of the Dronfield by pass back on a foggy Saturday morning back in the early 80s, when I saw my first Montego Black quattro, and then being stood in Dalby Forest at 3am watching the brakes glowing on Mikkolas car, like it was yesterday. As for your Saturn V Rocket recreation, I've got one of those, that (spoken in true John Noakes style)... I made earlier.... Get down Shep!! __________________ Peace...........through superior acceleration! T85 1985 90quattro I5 20vT T81 1983 80 Sport Red T81 1983 80 Sport Silver

22-10-12, 08:54 AM	#41
s2rob Grown up member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 208	good point about the beemer...... mk2 escorts...if i had a genuine rs2000,would that be worth more or less than my mates escort popular which looks like an rs2000?????? same with lambo reps,looks same,goes same(rep may be quicker),but not priced same

22-10-12, 10:27 AM	#42
rtz62 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,527	There's a guy near here (Glapwell, just on the edge of J29 of the M1) who regularly has a recovery vehicle outside his council house with Maltese registered Escort mk1&2's on. I know of 2 that have been turned into 'genuine RS2000's using the original vehicles vin plate and log book. But fook me, how many mk1&2 Escorts are there still left in Malta, an island of 316 km2, with less roads than the smallest English county, Rutland

22-10-12, 12:02 PM	#45
rtz62 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,527	£6000 back then equates to £???? now though Steve? I remember you and I turning down a mk1 Escort Twin Cam (or was it an RS1600) at £4000 as it was 'too expensive' at the time! I think you're wrong about TM's car, by the way, it will be worth 'all the money' all day long, not only because of what the car is, and represents, but also because of the legacy left by its driver (same goes for an ex-Burns or McRae car). Id agree with you more if you'd have suggested Seb Loebs car; imho he isn't a 'personality' like the aforementioned, and is unfortunate to be a big fish and a rapidly diminishing pool, as interest in WRC seems to be on the wane. Thats not to knock his skill or abilities, but to be considered the best you have to be competing against 'the best'; hence I'm sure thats why he is jumping ship to Touring Cars, to prove his mettle. A recreation of a rally car is a good thing, as the likes of the ordinary folk (I class myself in there) could never afford a genuine works car, and, if we could, probably wouldn't want to risk bending it; its a bit like having a Rembrandt, and putting a copy on display; 99% of the people wouldn't know the difference, and wouldn't care anyway, it is, as you quite rightly say, the pure emotion that evokes in us that matters. I'm now going to my shed to carry on with recreating, out of a washing-up bottle and a roll of sticky-back plastic, a genuine Saturn V rocket (a la Blue Peter)

22-10-12, 01:07 PM	#47
rtz62 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,527	Mate, I've still got an Airfix or Revel Saturn v rocket model waiting to be built up in its box! We are all captives of our own era; our dads might have said the Monte-winning Minis were the most exciting, today's teenager saying Loebs Citroen is the best. Turn it round slightly, is the F1 championship winning car of Mike Hawthorne better or more desirable than Vettels Red zbull from last year? But we'd all want Sennas cars, even the ones that didn't win, purely by association with the driver and the era that was important in our formative years. Me? I'd have Mikkolas Audi, Alens S4, Alan Jones Williams and Sennas McLaren. Note the lack of current vehicles.....

22-10-12, 06:55 PM	#49
rtz62 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,527	Ok, a case in point, and one that defines the market view; When a 'famous' Auto Union race winning car came up for auction over 12 months ago, it was initially withdrawn as it wasn't the chassis it purported to be. The experts view was that, for instance, the engine is changed after a significant event (eg a stage or race win) then that's one thing but to change the chassis and / or a substantive amount if the running gear after such a moment, and it's not driven by, say McRae, again, it can only loosely claim to be an ex-McRae car. If you follow my gist? (That's Bonhams view, not mine by the way).